El Manto Negro And the AnimeOTK 2 Rules

[elmantonegro]

My attention was been attracted to the new set of rules even though I understand them and their purpose there are some that need clarification in order to avoid future misunderstandings.

6Vi. Western Comics & Manga's
Western Comics are out: Manga's ONLY. The occasional image might slip by if it's nicely cropped and of interest. Covers of SuperMan, SuperBoy, WonderWoman or Little Audrey are NOT allowed, there are thousands of other sites for that. Pieces may be allowed to stay on individual cases, do not upload covers or comicbook pages though, they will not be allowed. We also have no interested in French, Russian, South-American, etc cartoon comics.

I understand the meaning of this, no comic scans period, but what about Animeish- mangaish stylization of western characters like the 17% of my art is, are these ok?

Also I can write pages about how my art is not even near to the western comics standards and also not even near to the anime and manga if I could say my art is Mantonegroism

6iX. referencing/tracing of artwork
This is extremely frowned upon. We suggested that you do not reference or trace works you upload as your own. Tracing works is strictly forbidden without clear artist permission. The original picture must be linked to if you reference a picture as well. Any artwork that is referenced and does not link to the original will be removed. Any artwork that is traced without permission will be removed. Please do not attempt to evade this rule. If caught you may be banned.

Again I understand why this is here, to prevent art theft, now I have some traced pieces on my sketches album and I said that are “traced” (I copy them by eye and hand) and I credit the original artist, and about linking the original pieces some of them are pictures that have long gone from the web others are from artist that have paid member based sites and other will result on braking more rules, so linking will not be the best option.

Will those pictures be removed because of this?

Third there is noting about 3d- Poser, DAZ3D, Bryce art any where on the site rules are this ok? Or you missed? Because I’m very interested about uploading the rest of my art because I consider this images essential for the enjoyment of my art, at least there are one image and one comic that deserve to be shared.

Finally is not my intention to challenge or avoid the rules I need clarification to produce new art according to the rules, because I feel that I have some pieces that going against them right now.

Yours: El Manto Negro

[RobM]

Originally Posted by elmantonegro

I understand the meaning of this, no comic scans period, but what about Animeish- mangaish stylization of western characters like the 17% of my art is, are these ok?

As with OldTk, these rules do not apply to art drawn by individuals, when it says "Covers of SuperMan" it means "Scans of Superman Covers." Litterally sepia toned scans of little audrey uploaded into the X/F galleries. 19th century french charcoals too.

We never punished artists at OldTk for drawing western art. I don't doubt some will claim we did, but its not true, there were several I could name off the top of my head who didn't draw in any style of japanese art.

6iX. referencing/tracing of artwork
This is extremely frowned upon. We suggested that you do not reference or trace works you upload as your own. Tracing works is strictly forbidden without clear artist permission. The original picture must be linked to if you reference a picture as well. Any artwork that is referenced and does not link to the original will be removed. Any artwork that is traced without permission will be removed. Please do not attempt to evade this rule. If caught you may be banned.

Will those pictures be removed because of this?[/quote]
Well, in an ideal world where every rule was enforced by a loyal militia answering only to me, Chairman Rob, your pictures would perhaps be removed (after checking your party membership and notifying block-officials of course) with a warning and a burst of gunfire.
But in this rather boring, real world I think just admitting is enough.

This rule is so we can punish those tiresome people who copy cross-chans work 100% identically, including the background and then deny it. So long as you make an honest effort to be open its not an issue.

Third there is noting about 3d- Poser, DAZ3D, Bryce art any where on the site rules are this ok?

Webmaster is cool with it, I'll probably create some special folders for it... since it really Isn't Anime unless its pretty well filtered, best to be segregated.
Your stuff especially will be welcome!

But to all the people about to rush off and download Poser so they can introduce rushed, badly-made OC.
1) I will be enforcing quality control! Basic Poser is several layers BELOW MSPaint in by book - shitty Poser will be removed same as shitty MSPaint is removed.
2) The rules about sexualisation still apply and will be strictly applied to 3D. People who make Poser/3D pics should avoid all children at all times unless their very sure.

[forks]

Fair and balanced, Rob. And I think we can all get behind your hate for bad Poser art... my god is some of it atrocious.

[Banjo]

Does this get into the slippery slope of 'mods' deciding personally what one considers "bad" art or not?

As a Poser artist myself (and perhaps one of the 'first' to use it to make spanking art on a large scale), I agree that a lot of folks turn out some pretty ugly work on the misconception it's "easier than drawing stuff". However, one could judge hand-drawn art the same way: I personally considered some of the stuff at the old AOTK as very basic and technically awful, but that's just my opinion and I'd never go around slamming an artist just because they weren't Sardax or Jay Em.

In fact, some artists I adore would be the first to admit their work is pretty basic and technically limited; Phyliss' literal "MS Paint" line-art work is one I find wonderfully emotive despite the limited medium, Ann Maddison's "pencil on yellow lined paper" is some of my favourite spanking art ever, and Forks himself (hey, mate!) will tell you his early stuff was "rubbish" but *I* absolutely loved it (and wish he'd post it here!). Ron Wilson used to post many years ago under the nickname 'lousy artist' because his stuff was so 'simplistic'; the guy has a huge following and tells stories really well with his art, however.

Slapping out some five minute Poser piece, attempting to colourise with MS Paint, or doing a bored sketch on the back of your Maths folder is unlikely to produce anything close to 'art', but I worry when I hear people talking about "shitty art" as a matter of personal opinion. In a community wanting to encourage others to post, rules are rules, but value judgements are different altogether.

I personally think far too many 'new' western artists try and emulate manga styles, and fail... they would be better off developing their own style, IMO. But that's IMO, of course. If I were a mod, I'd probably have very different views on what was 'acceptable' or not (heck, my F/M preference would make me much harder on X/F than most others here alone!).

Not a challenge, just something for all to keep in mind, especially in a community wanting to encourage others to return to and feel welcome at.

[RobM]

Originally Posted by Banjo

Does this get into the slippery slope of 'mods' deciding personally what one considers "bad" art or not?

...I agree that a lot of folks turn out some pretty ugly work on the misconception it's "easier than drawing stuff". However, one could judge hand-drawn art the same way: I personally considered some of the stuff at the old AOTK as very basic and technically awful, but that's just my opinion and I'd never go around slamming an artist just because they weren't Sardax or Jay Em.

Art is subjective, all moderation will always be based around personal decisions, its not a slippery slope at all; Its the way things always have worked.
One does judge hand-drawn art or photoshop digital-art the same way as Poser work, shitty MSPaint work, poorly made drawings and others. These were routinely removed from OldTk, despite your criticisms that pictures you don't like were allowed - but I've addressed that in the other thread.

Technical quality mixed with artistic talent both combine the piece, if its execution is awful it doesn't take a brain-surgeon or Brian Sewell to identifiy a meritless, souless brash heap of lines, bendy limbs and unsymetrical shapes.
All the art mods here are artists themselves, its not as difficult a decision or incidentally subjective as you make out.

Originally Posted by Banjo

Ron Wilson used to post many years ago under the nickname 'lousy artist' because his stuff was so 'simplistic'; the guy has a huge following and tells stories really well with his art, however.

He was also batshit insane and has ragequit every site he's ever been a member of except one, which was populated entirely by his fans with closed registration so no dissent could ever possibly appear.

Simplistic =/= Crap

Give experianced moderators more credit than that. There are plenty of artists whose work was exceptionally creative and stylised in execution - and I do think you dislike or have bias against non-3D art or works that don't hold nostalga value. Every time you ever list artists their always old, old-names, dead, retired, pre-internet veterans or a combination of all of those.
Just because you feel hard done by on another site owned by someone else many years ago doesn't mean you have to constantly, pro-actively remind people of your validity. We're not idiots, nor are we incapble of telling the difference between stylistic execution and immature, weak, bad art.

just something for all to keep in mind

As before, you protest too much and too defensively against an attack on 3D that isn't coming. You don't need to rush to lobby against rules that aren't there.

[Banjo]

Originally Posted by RobM

One does judge hand-drawn art or photoshop digital-art the same way as Poser work, shitty MSPaint work, poorly made drawings and others. These were routinely removed from OldTk, despite your criticisms that pictures you don't like were allowed - but I've addressed that in the other thread.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick in that thread, mate, with your very confrontational tone, but what you're saying HERE I agree with. I was just pointing out how some site mods tend to judge on purely 'what they like' (e.g. general spanking forums that are harsher on genres they personally dislike, such as F/F or F/M or whatever). No offense intended; I was seeking discussion on the topic, not saying "I bet those idiots don't know good art!".

Incidentally, "pictures I don't like" is a wrong interpretation of me describing on "stuff I thought more likely to get a site in legal trouble than CG art". It's not what I like or not that matters at all.

Originally Posted by RobM

Ron Wilson... is also batshit insane and has ragequit every site he's ever been a member of except one, which was populated entirely by his fans with closed registration so no dissent could ever possibly appear.

As someone who has been on the receiving end of that 'special' rage too, I *promise* that was just an example, not a 'defense' of anything or anyone!

Originally Posted by RobM

Give experianced moderators more credit than that.

I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. I don't 'know' any mods here, so I don't know if they're artists or not or how 'smart' they are. As you said, humans are going to be subjective regardless.

[quote:"RobM"]There are plenty of artists whose work was exceptionally creative and stylised in execution - and I do think you dislike or have bias against non-3D art or works that don't hold nostalga value. Every time you ever list artists their always old, old-names, dead, retired, pre-internet veterans or a combination of all of those.
Just because you feel hard done by on another site owned by someone else many years ago doesn't mean you have to constantly, pro-actively remind people of your validity. We're not idiots, nor are we incapble of telling the difference between stylistic execution and immature, weak, bad art.[/quote]
Again, i think you're taking what I said the wrong way, or 'reading between the lines' wrongly at least. The artists I mentioned are just those I know and who are cases of "style over technical skill" Someone like, say, CC is more recent but is clearly a skilled artist from the first pic she posted! As for me being a bit out of touch... there aren't many who do F/M work that I know of these days (Zani is an exception that spirngs to mind, since you asked for a "current" one). I'd be genuinely happy to discover new artists I'd love, so feel free to point to their galleries or websites.

Though as for me having a bias against non-3D art... I had to smile at that. I know we're not friends, and you don't know me, but that couldn't be more wrong. Honestly, whenever people tell me they like my art or I "inspired them", as nice as that is I NEVER feel I deserve it! Subjectively, I don't even myself a 'proper' artist... those are the people who have genuine skill at drawing and painting. I had this discussion with Forks above, he'll tell you; I am NOTHING compared to someone like Endart or CC or Jay Em; professional or amateur, those are 'real' artists. I gushed like a fanboy when Sardax wrote to me a few months back - THAT is an 'artist', not someone doing virtual photography like me in Poser. Heck, I don't think - aside from my own stuff - I even look at other CG spanking artists who aren't friends of mine.

Finally, an aside: I only 'lurked' on AOTK when it was in the old version, but I know how much it meant to a lot of people. I was seriously (and I doubt you'll believe me, but still) in talks with someone to fully fund the entire site hosting again shortly before this version came online recently. Zero benefit for me to do so, but I wanted to help what I saw as a vital part of the spanking and art community online. If you tell me who to talk to here (site owner, I presume?), I would be happy to put them in touch with the person I was speaking to if they would like me to. It may not be of any help now, but they were eager to support the site's return. My problem was that I never knew the admins of the previous site, so didn't know who to put her in touch with!

[Drooaygah]

Originally Posted by RobM

As with OldTk, these rules do not apply to art drawn by individuals, when it says "Covers of SuperMan" it means "Scans of Superman Covers." Litterally sepia toned scans of little audrey uploaded into the X/F galleries. 19th century french charcoals too.

I'm sorry but I am with El Manto Negro on this particular piece. I would encourage that the rules be revised to read something to the effect that this refers to scans of other artists work, and that individual artists may post works in any style, anime- or not, in their own galleries, as long as they are in accordance with the rules.

You will recall that there were issues at the former that came up due to varying interpretations of the rules. The existing rules are, for the most part, very clear. I am suggesting that this (and other rules that might bring up questions), should be revised for absolute clarity, as much as is humanly possible.

[imported_Dr. Weird]

I feel obligated to add my two cents to this topic whenever it come up, even though others beat me to almost everything I planned to say. In theory, a single gallery mod on the old site could permanently remove any piece they chose from the server. In practice, this was rare--usually reserved for flagrant content violations. Most of the offending was shifted into 'quarantine,' and deleted in batches once the team came to an agreement.

We did this specifically so artists or other staff would have the opportunity to make a case for keeping it. Over the lifetime of the previous gallery we did remove a LOT of content. I believe it came out to something like 4000+ pictures out of 28,000 uploaded. However, almost every time we singled out an individual artist's entire gallery for removal was either at their request or due to the ever-popular ragequit.

As for 3D poser art, well, isn't the fact it's illegal in multiple countries reason enough? I mean, that's not an exaggeration, y'know? People have gone to jail for it. That might not be the case in your particular country, but I hope you can see why the previous AOTK's staff and I considered it justified. Whole bunch of explicitly anime-styled renders got the axe too. Aesthetics had nothing to do with it.

[Drooaygah]

Respectfully, Rob and Dr. Weird ... I think the real slippery slope here is getting into debates about what was deleted in the old AOTK.
If we establish some very clearly-worded, cut-and-dry, rules about what can or can't be posted - which, for the most part, has been done - but since questions are coming up, obviously not entirely.

The point is not whether 3D Poser art (for example) is good or bad, legal or illegal - but rather, is it allowed or not. If that isn't clearly spelled out in the rules, it should be. Plain and simple: "No 3D Poser art!" (if that's going to be the rule).

If these things are explicitly stated, there will be no confusion, and no debate. Either something's allowed, and a mod is obliged to leave it alone, or it isn't, and a mod is obliged to delete it. Period. There will always be people who object, but, too bad - if something's clearly prohibited then they've got no leg to stand on.

Again, respectfully, I felt a lack of clarification, leaving the mods to make too many judgment calls on their own. Obviously there will be times when mods will, necessarily, have to make a judgment call. But it's best if such cases are minimized.

So, I am urging the webmaster to look at such questions as legitimate feedback on the clarity and content of the rules, and to edit/revise them, as needed, to ensure they are as clear as possible. I.e. - adding statements such as "artists posting their own work to their own individual galleries are not restricted to anime-style art" and "3D Poser Art is allowed" (or "is not allowed" - as the case may be).

Believe me, this will help avoid a lot of trouble down the line.

[Macha]

You know, I am not exactly ROb's biggest fan by a long shot but I think that his approach makes sense.

You cannot make rules detailing every thing in minute detail. It doesn't work, you end up with rules that do require hours to read through, as well as an attourney...or two...or ten. Why? Because every rule clarification adds two more questions.

The way they handle it right now is completely okay, and the only sane one. It's a common sense approach. All that could be added is a small disclaimer that, yes, if YOUR art displays western characters, it's acceptable, and if YOUR art is in a western style, it might be too, but if it's not your art, it'll always be removed.

And even that disclaimer would be superfluous, it'd be best to just answer an individual artist's question, I think