Nihongo / Anime Honourifics

[rogue-kun]

Originally Posted by Ai

Oh yes :P I hate watching a subtitled anime where they try and translate the honorifics / titles to English equivalents. If you understand a small amount of Japanese they make a big difference. One example is "-sama" being translated to "sir-" or "-miss" etc. The other reason is there are usually no translations that flow properly in English. I know that at the end of the day it is personal choice but I would prefer to read subtitles that use the Japanese honorifics or read a story that uses them as you can gain a lot more information

there also the bit you miss when honourfics are dropped, which in itself has a lot of infomation how close the chracters are.

[FlairBlack]

I agree with Ai, I hate in animes where they try to translate the honorifics into english equvilamnts. They are none and it makes it look very obscure to both ppl who understand wht they're trying to say and to ppl who dont understand it.

[_cf]

Originally Posted by FlairBlack

I agree with Ai, I hate in animes where they try to translate the honorifics into english equvilamnts. They are none and it makes it look very obscure to both ppl who understand wht they're trying to say and to ppl who dont understand it.

I dilike a recent fansubber trend of leaving terms in japanese untranslated. I saw more Onii-sans, Itadakimasus! and even nakamas in english subs than I'd ever care to see.

I'm a fan of translation notes, even the large ones, but I think leaving japanese terms untranslated will only scare people who aren't fans already.

[Dr. Weird]

Originally Posted by Arukan

I personally believe we should not use the honorifics in English speech/fanfics. they just don't belong, we're not in Japan. >.>

I can already hear someone saying "But the characters are!" Folks, listen... Just try to get along without honorifics before you dismiss the possiblity. It's not neccessary for--to use an incredibly popular example--Hinata to refer to Naruto as "Naruto-kun" to communicate how she feels about him. That comes through in the dialogue, in the actions and reactions.

And if it doesn't? Then you need to rewrite it. All concerns about culture aside, honorifics still represent a crutch for a writer, and it's not one you want to be leaning on. Honorifics like -san, -chan, etc. don't get under my skin quite so badly, even if I don't think you should be using them. But "oniichan?" "Itadakimasu?" No. Never.

"Big brother," and "let's eat!" mean the exact, same thing.

"Nakama?" I loves me some One Piece, and I know how important the word is in the series, but 'comrade/shipmate/crewmate' can all be used interchangeably, and with the same strength of emotion behind them. All this stuff might read a little strangely to you the first time you attempt it, especially if you're used to fansubs. But reading random Japanese scattered around a story breaks the mood very quickly. You can train yourself to hear the voices fully in English if you try.

[rogue-kun]

Originally Posted by _cf

I dilike a recent fansubber trend of leaving terms in japanese untranslated. I saw more Onii-sans, Itadakimasus! and even nakamas in english subs than I'd ever care to see.

I'm a fan of translation notes, even the large ones, but I think leaving japanese terms untranslated will only scare people who aren't fans already.

Ever case where seen them, the also have a traslater note.

ever place you see Oniisan would you rather see "Honourible Big brother"

there is not good traslation for Itakakimasus that fits on screen long enough to tell you what being said in english. (as when you say Grace in english it a lot more than one word).

and nakamas, do say "Coligue Smith" when adressing your friend at work?

[darkraven]

I never really used honorifics in my stories, but not because I thought they were inappropriate or out of place. It was more that it never occurred to me to do so. That being said, the best fic series I ever read Daigakusei no Ranma used them all the time and I really enjoyed the series. I wish it hadn't just stopped so abruptly. I guess what I'm saying is that if it's a great fic, honorifics are not going to harm it, and if it's a bad fic, honorifics will not save it. I may use them in the future, or I may choose not to.

[Dr. Weird]

Originally Posted by rogue-kun

Ever case where seen them, the also have a traslater note.

ever place you see Oniisan would you rather see "Honourible Big brother"

there is not good traslation for Itakakimasus that fits on screen long enough to tell you what being said in english. (as when you say Grace in english it a lot more than one word).

and nakamas, do say "Coligue Smith" when adressing your friend at work?

No... but it's not a binary choice. Translation is the art of rendering meaning not just the precise words. "Oniisan" is a respectful but not overly formal way of referring to an older brother. You could choose to rephrase that as "older brother," "big brother," or even just "brother." Or even use the character's actual name. Do you--or people you know--really always call your siblings by their relation to you rather than their name? Things like the level of formality can be communicated by how respectfully they speak, body language, tone of voice...

Yeah, doing it that way can be hard.

Good writing usually is.

And that's the crux of the problem here, I think. We see this stuff in fansubs and manga, and come to assume it has to be that way. But writing is a different medium. What works in one medium is not necessarily going to translate well to another. I'm not a huge fan of leaving honorifics untranslated in general: I urge all of you who support it to seek out manga and anime where they were translated and see how they did it. You'll find it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be.

But in a story, it almost never works. I'm not saying it magically makes a good story into a bad one, and vice versa. But it is the better choice. I don't intend to go down the entire list giving examples, because I shouldn't have to in order to make my point. Personally, I think the list could be quite useful if you included how these words appeared in Japanese characters. That sort of quick reference could be useful to refer to.

[_cf]

Originally Posted by rogue-kun

Ever case where seen them, the also have a traslater note.

ever place you see Oniisan would you rather see "Honourible Big brother"

there is not good traslation for Itakakimasus that fits on screen long enough to tell you what being said in english. (as when you say Grace in english it a lot more than one word).

and nakamas, do say "Coligue Smith" when adressing your friend at work?

Rogue-kun, you're missing the point of translating. The words themselves aren't sacred. The meaning is much more important. And the meaning must be adapted to the culture of each place. In Japan, people avoid using given names in many situations where they're the natural, expected choice in English.

So, yes. I'd rather see [brother's name] instead Oniisan, let's eat! instead itadakimasu! and if I lived in OP world I'd cry manly tears while waxing poetic about my shipmates.

<RANT>
Mind you, there's this social thing happening in anime fandom where people -san, -chan and -kun themselves as a form of group identity. When writing for this group, it makes all sense to go kawaii desu nee~~ ^_^, because what you're actually doing is talking a kind of slang. This is all nice and fine if you understand what's happening. What's not nice and fine is when people mix things up and start thinking that translated japanese feels more "authentic" with nihongo terms inside english phrases.

It's NOT more authentic. It certainly doesn't sound more natural to japanese speakers, or to everybody else not already a diehard anime fan.
</RANT>

That's it. I could simply quote Dr. Weird's entire posts for truth, but I felt adding something. That I was saddened to see what seemed a slippery slope of sloppy translations* probably only means I'm getting old.

* THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF SLOPPY TRANSLATIONS:
1st stage (years ago): -san and -chan
2nd stage (these days): -itadakimasu!
3rd stage (near future): masaka! naruhodo!
4th stage (nearer than you think): 私はなぜ気にかけさえしますか?

[rogue-kun]

[quote=_cf;9090

* THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF SLOPPY TRANSLATIONS:
1st stage (years ago): -san and -chan
2nd stage (these days): -itadakimasu!
3rd stage (near future): masaka! naruhodo!
4th stage (nearer than you think): 私はなぜ気にかけさえしますか?[/quote]



I'm not missing the point at all. you say it comes from body language? Well the original writer didn't the the body language was transferred, or tone for that matter, the the first place. Also We do use "bro" and "sis" in english but this ais about on the live of Niichan and Neechan, (or at best -san insead of -chan)
but We do not have the ewvel of 0niisan, let along oniisama.


Perfect example is the Inuyasha Dub. no i started whatching this show as the dub, but i missed an episode so look ad the sub episode to catch up, I had no clue form the dub that Miruke help kagome in such regard as to call here -sama!

and Viz are one of the better dub companes out there.


as to the slippery slope, if you know enough to know it name then you know its full name is "Slippery Slope falicy

[darkraven]

I doubt you'll ever see the phrase "Why am I worrying?" (if I translated that properly) in kana form ever. That slippery slope will never be reached. Masaka and naruhodo may eventually come about, as may other commonplace Japanese words. It really does not hurt to know them in any case. It can be fun to impress your friends with random knowledge of foreign words sometimes, or at the very least, if you ever go to Japan you'll know how to properly address people, what to say in certain situations, etc. Learning is not a bad thing in itself.

The complaint here as I understand it is that it's awkward to see English interspersed with Japanese, but in reality it's whatever writing style the author prefers. I've seen great fics with plenty of oneesan, oniichan, kanrininsan, etc. and I absolutely loved them. I've seen plenty of ones that didn't use them that sucked so bad that I had to stop reading them part way through. If I'm taken with the story I don't care whether or not it has some Japanese in it. If I don't know a word I'll look it up, though I've never seen anything more than commonplace terms used. If I know the word, my mind immediately processes it and I continue reading as though it were English.

Furthermore, I've never seen anything but canned words and phrases used, and I doubt it will ever go past that point 1) because the average fic writer does not speak Japanese well enough to actually construct full gramatically correct sentences that are not canned, and 2) because the writer knows that writing the translation table for it would be pure hell, as it would turn into a Japanese grammar lesson. If you ever see the question and answer "spootsu no naka de ichiban suki desu ka?" "tenisu ga ichiban suki desu!" or something similar in any fic, I will be surprised. There's no way you can provide a translation table that someone unfamiliar with the language could reference, and I don't think any fic writer would be that ignorant. The slippery slope simply does not apply here. There is a limit to it and that limit is quite far away from creating full coherent grammatically constructed sentences written in kana (especially kanji), which few people know.