How do you avoid rewarding for failure?

[flashmaster63]

A lot of spanking games have the same situation - the player is encouraged to fail at whatever the games objective is. This is because most often, spanking is a punishment for failure. So it only makes sense.

The only way I've had an idea to avoid this, is to have spankings for success, but this hits on an "unfairness" tick that I'm not always a fan of either.

While maintaining the "spanking as a punishment" scenario, does anybody have any ideas for how to avoid rewarding failure or administering unfair spankings for success?

[Wildfire]

The spanking scene being locked behind the challenge is most likely the easiest way to go about it.
Like getting spanked for breaking into a house can't happen unless you actually manage to get inside in the first place.
But that could be what you mean with spanking for success which could feel unfair.

Another way could be trying to downgrade your punishment to only be a spanking, like starting out be risking jail time, but fixing stuff enough that a spanking would suffice.

[aka]

This is actually a pretty common problem that story-based Tabletop RPG's wrestle with.


See, the most satisfying stories involve the heroes *failing* at key moments, and then coming back to succeed later. Return of the Jedi wouldn't have been remotely as satisfying without Empire Strikes Back.


The heroes failing raises tension, raises the stakes, and makes victory all the more satisfying.


So, if you want a satisfying story (the goal of story-focused Tabletop RPG systems) you need the heroes to fail periodically. Except, tabletop RPGs are a cooperative game, games that the players are expected to win (much like video games). So, as the players get better, failure becomes less and less likely. And you can very easily get into a situation where the players never lose, even if the fiction suggests they should. Imagine if Luke Skywalker defeated Darth Vader in Cloud City!


Alternatively, because they are games with random elements, they might get killed by the first random goblin they fight, which doesn't make for a satisfying story either.


So, if you're interested in some inspiration, you can always look at tabletop story-based games, to see what other people have done to thread this.


The approach that FATE (https://fate-srd.com/) takes for example, is to try to divorce the player's goal from their character's.


The player's goal is no longer to make their character to succeed. That's not the "game." The "game" is to tell a satisfying story. Thus, the game introduces meta currency that players accumulate when they lean into their character's flaws, and when they allow and/or make them fail. This meta currency can then be used to ensure success later. In fact, even if a character fails, a player could decide they succeed instead but at a cost!


So one could attempt something like that. Acknowledge that the player's goal (see the main character get spanked) is different from their character's goal (succeed and *not* get spanked). Maybe have a mechanic where characters have to pay some sort of "cost" when they succeed (like a spanking! Maybe they had to break a few laws to get the bad guy), or maybe they get some sort of bonus for failing (let the character fail now, get spanked, but get a bonus to use later). I attempt to apply the FATE approach to a game in Samantha Stone: https://www.spankingrpgs.com/wp-cont...tha_stone.html


It's barely started, but might give you an idea of how it works. To no one's surprise, this sort of thing is difficult. Just to keep things manageable, you'd probably be best off giving the players a predefined character with a specific set of traits, rather than try to offer a list to choose from like I do here.


Another approach is what Powered by The Apocalypse style games do: your characters only improve (i.e. gain XP) when they fail. When they succeed, good things happen in the fiction. When they fail, bad things happen but they get better. So you could take this approach, and have the challenges they face get progressively more challenging. So either players will eventually start failing despite their best efforts, or will be incentivized to pick obviously less likely to succeed choices so they can improve and be able to overcome later obstacles.


Neither of these are especially satisfying answers, I'll admit. The first one is very difficult to implement in a satisfactory way in a video game, and the second could feel rather forced. Plus, both divorce the concerns of the player from the concerns of the character, which players may find inhibits their immersion.


One idea that really stands out to me, is to really lean into the idea of "success at a cost." Engineer your mechanics somehow so that when the players use them, they pay a price (likely spankings). If it's a CHYOA, then set it up so that most choices that succeed still have some sort of negative side-effect that gets the PC in trouble (you stopped the villain, but the bank is in ruins! You saved the hostages, but the villain got away!). If it's a side-scroller or something, have some sort of energy bar that the player drains as they use abilities, and if they reach the end of the stage with the bar too low, some figure-in-the-shadows whose been watching them shows up and spanks them while they're weak.


They still beat the level and can advance, but they got spanked all the same.

[flashmaster63]

@Wildfire: thanks. The thief example does kind of push into the unfairness I'm trying to avoid, but the "lessened consequences" option might be useful.

@aka: thanks for the input! I'll have a look at those resources. I've played a lot of Dungeons and Dragons, but haven't delved into many other forms of TTRPGs or anything, so broadening my horizons is probably a good place to start.

I think my biggest problem is me (as a person): I hate not having control. So having the player spanked for something like "The bank got destroyed!" If it's out of their control runs back into unfairness category. If, as a player or a character, I've done my best to be as good as I possibly can, why should I get spanked?

I'm intrigued by the idea of failing to improve, and that might be something that's worth considering to try and justify the player/character simply being incapable of things, but working towards a potential victory all the same.

I think it also partially depends on what kind of game I would want to make, and having to accept some level of loss of control overall. Might be the case where there is no clear definition of success at the beginning so you just do the best you can, and spankings might just end up being a part of that.

[Wildfire]

You could also have the PC seeking spankings, where falling means either getting punished with something more then a spanking or the spanking being to harsh to be able to continue.

So thing like doing the tightrope thing trying to get your boss to spank you without getting fired.
or managing the PC's composure while getting a spanking, trying to be as bratty as possible to keep the spanking going without the PC losing enough sanity, that they give up and apologise.

[Dongo]

spanking for success, Cornertime for failure.

[Godspeak]

This is a great question that I've spent some time struggling with as well, so I'll share what I've learned.



1. Make getting punished a challenge in itself. Failing spectacularly enough that someone decides you need physical discipline instead of just a tongue lashing can be the goal. This makes the experience pretty similar to any other game as the goal is still clearly defined. You can reconcile this narratively by making the player character aware that they're being controlled by some outside force, but unable to do anything about it.


2. Make succeeding and failing both reward states. You can do this by making it so that behaving well results in some kind of sexual result and behaving badly results in a punishment. This has the double advantage that you can entice some of the greater erotic games market by not just being a spanking-only game.


3. Make creatively figuring out how to get punished the main gameplay loop. I remember playing a game here a while back that worked like this. Repeating the same action would just cue the NPCs that you were being a brat just to get punished and would put you in time out, but finding new ways to misbehave would result in new scenes of punishment.



4. Abandon the idea that your game needs to be won or lost entirely. Visual novels work like this. The impetus to play the game is created through an interesting story and choices that affect the narrative rather than challenging mechanics.



5. Trick the player. Present the player with a goal that initially seems righteous, but is later revealed to have been an erroneous assumption. This one unfortunately only works once because after the player realizes what you're doing, the magic will be gone and they'll know what to expect. Could still make for a pretty fun little twist in a short game though.


That's just my two cents on the matter.

[Someguy7116]

Originally Posted by Godspeak

This is a great question that I've spent some time struggling with as well, so I'll share what I've learned.



1. Make getting punished a challenge in itself. Failing spectacularly enough that someone decides you need physical discipline instead of just a tongue lashing can be the goal. This makes the experience pretty similar to any other game as the goal is still clearly defined. You can reconcile this narratively by making the player character aware that they're being controlled by some outside force, but unable to do anything about it.


2. Make succeeding and failing both reward states. You can do this by making it so that behaving well results in some kind of sexual result and behaving badly results in a punishment. This has the double advantage that you can entice some of the greater erotic games market by not just being a spanking-only game.


3. Make creatively figuring out how to get punished the main gameplay loop. I remember playing a game here a while back that worked like this. Repeating the same action would just cue the NPCs that you were being a brat just to get punished and would put you in time out, but finding new ways to misbehave would result in new scenes of punishment.



4. Abandon the idea that your game needs to be won or lost entirely. Visual novels work like this. The impetus to play the game is created through an interesting story and choices that affect the narrative rather than challenging mechanics.



5. Trick the player. Present the player with a goal that initially seems righteous, but is later revealed to have been an erroneous assumption. This one unfortunately only works once because after the player realizes what you're doing, the magic will be gone and they'll know what to expect. Could still make for a pretty fun little twist in a short game though.


That's just my two cents on the matter.

What game is number 3 in reference to?

[Godspeak]

Originally Posted by Someguy7116

What game is number 3 in reference to?

This was 6 to 8 years ago my dude. If you expect me to remember the name of a game I played exactly once for like 3 minutes then I envy your memory lmao.

[Someguy7116]

lmao fair enough my bad